Hi,

Got in some games with the Cub the last few days, and am starting to form some early impressions of Brets. Games were smallish, 1000 points, and my list was Lord / Standardin / Prophetess, KotR, Freeguild archers (for cheap battleline), Mountd Yeomen, Treb, and was run strictly against Stormcast, so a little salt should be taken.

1. We still rock combined arms. Even with substandard archers (Freeguild don't compare to peasants), we can do all phases of the game, and hammer and anvil tactics still work. Grab 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the butt is a viable approach.

2. We're still crazy mobile. I ran more cavalry than I've seen run in this game so far, and I deliberately stuck to a balance. We can move, in reasonable numbers, which helps with objective grabbing etc.

3. We still need chaff. We can run some really big, fun, deathstarry stuff (really want to try out unit of 16 KotR with Damsel support), but it means a lot of power concentrated in a few units. We need cheap, disposal stuff with which we can screen, and which can tie up their hammer units for a turn so we get the charge.

5. We're not as hard as we were. 2 wounds and 4 up save is pretty solid, but Knights aren't a tarpit, even with the blessing. That said, with the Blessing and or Mystic shield up, we're tougher than most cavalry.

6. Lords pack a whallop, sort of. I took the rending option for my arcane item, and it's a huge boost. The Lord gutted a unit of Paladins, a unit of Libbies, soloed a unit of Prosecutors, and nearly took out his Celestant when IT charged HIM. But, he only has 5 wounds, and unless you blow the Blessing on his, has no protection from mortal wounds. Not quite a glass cannon, but not tempered steel either.

7. Trebuchet still rock. See that Celestant on a Dracoth? Now you don't.

I'm really interested in exploring cheap battleline options. While KotR seem solid for the points, and decent cavalry as battleline is pretty great, the points do add up as games get bigger. Any ideas for cheap 'n easy battleline screeners out there?

FMB

kotr are shit unless theyre 16 which is too expensive.

i use free guild guard and archers/xbowmen for battle line then use loads of grail knights

How are they shit? They're mobile, have good armour, and are 3/3 for 2 damage on the charge. They have decent morale, and come in respectable numbers. Only issue seems to be the lack of rend, but that's an army-wide problem, yeah?

Are you finding the points hike for the Grail knights is compensated by the extra attack and rend? Is it making that big a difference?

FMB

I've found that the more expensive units are much more worth the points.
Just get the minimum amount of men at arms and then spend the rest on lords/characters/trebuchet and maybe some grail/questing/pegasus knights.
I haven't tried the peasant army yet though and the bonuses look alright.

Anyone tried the big KotR unit (16+)? I'm curious.

FMB

I'm also interested in seeing what a giant Knight of the Realm army can do.
I'm thinking that they will be routed by any character/heavy army.
The opponent could also just put a fodder unit out in front that would eat up your charge bonuses then charge in the next round. Fodder units are very hard to get around due to the 3 inch rule.
I think you would need a very open battlefield.
Maybe if the KotR got a good surface area by surrounding, flanking or concaving they would be able to deal a coup de grace in the first or second round with a glorious charge.
I think the game would be decided very early.

You would want a reserve of small units of cavalry to do counter charges. Course, small units are banned (or if you prefer, pay a "surcharge" in AoS. So nevermind. Not sure what you can do.

SirChristoph wrote:
... Fodder units are very hard to get around due to the 3 inch rule. ...

... Maybe if the KotR got a good surface area by surrounding, flanking or concaving they would be able to deal a coup de grace in the first or second round with a glorious charge. I think the game would be decided very early.
Remind me what the three inch rule is?

I have wondered if organizing Knights in threes might be useful. What I have in mind is micro-move trays with one knight centered in the front rank and two behind him. (Five of those plus one loose knight would make a unit of 16. The bases would be the 24x50 rectangles.) I am Picturing the lead knight wedged in a gap between two foes on rounds, his buddies touching the figure on either side...

Do you think little wedges like that would help or hinder?

From "The Rules":
"When you move a model in the movement phase, you may not move within 3" of enemy models."
This combined with:
"A unit must be set up and finish any sort of move as a single group of models, with all models within 1" of at least one other model from their unit"

This means that your opponent can stagger/skirmish their units in the front, effectively making a blockade with expendable units (like clan rats or peasants) right in front of your knights. This makes it so it's not possible for you to charge into their more expensive units on the opening rounds. Once you're stuck in combat, their units can just charge in on a following round.

Unfortunately the cavalry wedge is more of a defensive maneuver in this game. This formation will make it more likely that less units will be in contact on an initial charge. This is because a wedge formation will give you less surface area in the front. In real life this works because you can penetrate deep into enemy ranks and split them causing a great deal of confusion and panic in a larger force.

Due to the benefits knights get from charging, ideally you want all of your knights to be in contact with the enemy on the charge in an early round. A more offensive formation, like a concave or a line, is recommended to get as many units in contact as you can during this initial charge.

As to having your lord in a gap between the enemy, I don't think this is a great idea. You would like your lord to take the least amount of hits as possible due to his expensive cost, so you would like to have a small surface area of enemy units touching him. You want him to be protected by his men. It's good to give him a retinue of king's guard. Also, he only needs to be barely touching another unit to do his full amount of damage.


Having mass knights in this game is very risky. Due to rolling for who gets to start the round, your opponent can get two turns in a row. This makes it likely that your opponent can double move and get the charge on you. This makes it very risky to have an army that depends on the charge. With knights, ideally you would like to do as much damage as possible very early on.

SirChristoph wrote:


Having mass knights in this game is very risky. Due to rolling for who gets to start the round, your opponent can get two turns in a row. This makes it likely that your opponent can double move and get the charge on you. This makes it very risky to have an army that depends on the charge. With knights, ideally you would like to do as much damage as possible very early on.

We can also get a double, which is pretty sweet

The other solution to the problem you're describing is to take chaff of our own. I think one of our biggest weaknesses in matched play is the absence of cheap, modestly effective chaff / buffers in the battleline role. Because even our "cheap" stuff, like MaA need to be bought in largish amounts, there's no functional equivalent to, say, Bloodreavers / Marauders for Chaos, at least in a "pure" Bret list. Freeguild archers are okay, and outside of battleline, I'm growing fond of Mounted Yeomen, but I'd give my eye teeth for Peasant Archers to have been made battleline.

FMB

Knights of the Realm are 27.5 points per knight.
Grail knights are 36 points per knight.
For 8.5 extra points you get an extra attack, 1 extra bravery, rend -1, reroll failed hit rolls.
I think the extra attack makes this worth the cost of the upgrade. You'll be doing a lot more damage.

"Trebuchet still rock" <- haha just got this.

"I'd give my eye teeth for Peasant Archers to have been made battleline"

I feel your pain. Men at arms are a necessity if you don't want most of your points to be taken up by Knights of the Realm or Knights Errant.
It's 240 points to reach the battleline quota using men at arms. That's 1/4 of a 1000 point army.. That's a lot.
It's 480 points to reach the battleline quota using Knights of the Realm. That's half of your army in a 1000 point game, that's a ton.
This doesn't give us a lot of army variation and I completely agree that we need a better battleline unit.
I need to test out more armies but right now it seems that using the filthy peasant men at arms for battleline is the better way to go.

Okay, got in three 2000 point games today at the G-Dub, as part of a narrative event they ran. Played against Sigmarine Deep Strike (lost, but close), Seraphon with Dread Saurian and escorts (won), and Sylvaneth with Alarielle, Durthu, another big Treeman, and assorted little treefolk(lost, plain outplayed). I ran an army balanced between stuff I had painted and stuff I wanted to try out:

Allegiance: ORDER
Battle Trait: Defiant Avengers
Hero: Louen de Leoncour
- General
Hero: Damsel on Pegasus
Hero: Bretonnian Lord on Steed
- Arcane Relic: Obstinate Blade (+1 Rend stat)
Hero: Damsel on Steed
Hero: Paladin Standard Bearer
Battleline: 16 Knights of the Realm (Gallant, Banner, Trumpeter)
Battleline: 10 Freeguild Archers (Marksman)
Battleline: 10 Freeguild Archers (Marksman)
Artillery: 1 Field Trebuchet
5 Mounted Yeomen (Warden, Trumpeter)
3 Pegasus Knights (Gallant, Banner, Trumpeter)

Overall impressions:

I was right about chaff. It was most important in the first game, but given how critical getting off the charge can be for us, having stuff you don't mind dying available to feed to an opponent can be key.

Louis is pretty great, and his passive ability is fantastic, but I don't know that he's 400 points great. I'll run him a few more times before deciding, but I found myself whiffing with him more often and not, and the big base he's on can cause issues.

I really want the big KotR unit to work, but it's tricky. Even slow stuff can move quickly enough to get in surprise charges in this game, and I had several turns where I needed the charge, and couldn't get it. Some of this was bad dice ( I rolled double ones THREE times for key charges, and failed others in the 6-8 range even with re-rolls). The extra attacks for the big unit are great, but I found I never actually got the whole unit stuck into a target on a charge turn, so much of the time, the numbers were just ablative wounds for my extra attacks. Pegs were good, but not great.

The single biggest issue for me was the lack of rend. In games where I could get off my casting rolls (which were awful outside of turn 2), Arcane Bolts were key, and the Treb, while unreliable as usual, was also great when it connected.

I'll need to get some Grail Knights and Questing Knights together to try out. Maybe talk the boy into a game. One option would be to add 10 more Freeguild archers as a Battleline tax, and run my painted knights as grail knights. I don't want to give up on KotR after one game, but the lack of rend is killer.

Report on the day, and some slightly fuzzy pics (had to borrow my daughter's "not quite a toy" camera for the day), are up on the blog: http://themonkeythatwalks.blogspot.ca/2016/11/learning-for-lady.html

FMB

Very nice!! Awesome stuff! Thanks for the battle reports.
I really like your use of the freeguild archers both as battleline and as a shield. Great idea!
I really like that list.

I'm surprised you didn't find King Louen more helpful especially with his no battleshock test ability.

Do you think using men at arms as a shield instead of the archers would have worked better? I'm building and painting some at the moment.

I like your idea of switching out the KotR with more archers so you can fit in Grail knights and questing knights.

I think the questing knights would be great against that Sylvaneth army because they get double damage vs monsters. Also Grail knights are pretty great if you can get a charge.

The deep strike thing must have been annoying. I can't think of anything to counter it except use units that do better without charging... Maybe men at arms or battle pilgrims... Good idea on making that circle.

It might be a good idea to try charging in with your Pegasus knights, running away and then charging again and repeating. I think they have enough movement that you can get away with it without being chased down. If you run they can move 16" + d6 (19.5 average) and over terrain and units. An average ground unit will have trouble reaching them even if they get a double move: (5" + d6)(run) + (5" + 2d6)(charge) (19.5 average).
You could do this with your regular knights too but you would probably need a friendly unit for them to flee through and guard their retreat.

Yeah - the charge cycling is something I need to get down. In the first game, I almost pulled it off, but the table was congested, and I flubbed some key charge rolls. Questing knights are definitely in the painting queue, and I'm planning to convert some GKs (greenstuff cloaks and bling . Louen was good, no battleshock is great, but he just seems . . . fragile.

FMB